A weekly podcast with the latest e-commerce news and events. Episode 333 is an interview with Jason Del Rey about his new paid newsletter “The Aisle”.
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Welcome back to the Jason and Scot Show, where we celebrate episode 333 with a truly special guest. Recorded on Thursday, November 19th, this episode features Jason Del Rey, a prominent e-commerce journalist and the author of the acclaimed book, *Winner Sells All: Amazon, Walmart, and the Battle for Our Wallets*. Jason is launching a new paid newsleter about AI era of commerce “The Aisle.” With a staggering combined history of over 30 years between Jason Goldberg, Scot Wingo, and Del Rey, this conversation dives deep into the evolving world of commerce and the exciting new venture that Del Rey is embarking upon.
Kicking off the episode, Jason G and Scot share their long history with Del Rey, discussing his illustrious career covering e-commerce for major publications like Inc. Magazine, Ad Age, and Fortune. They reminisce about Del Rey’s past appearances on their show (episodes 67 and 183) and set the stage for his latest project, an independent media company called “The Aisle.” Del Rey recounts his trajectory into the e-commerce world, starting from covering digital media companies at Ad Age to eventually becoming an Amazon expert while working under media icons Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher at All Things D.
Del Rey reflects on his experiences as a journalist, highlighting his strong relationships with leading figures in the retail space, including interviews with Jeff Bezos, Doug McMillan, and Mark Lurie. He discusses the events he hosted—particularly the Code Commerce series—where he connected influential retail CEOs and tech leaders. As the conversation progresses, Jason G and Scot delve into Del Rey’s motives for launching The Aisle, underscoring both personal and professional motivations. Del Rey candidly shares his views on mortality and the urgency to pursue one’s passions, a perspective deepened by the early loss of family members and friends.
Transitioning into the specifics of his new venture, Del Rey reveals that The Aisle will cover the future of commerce through the lens of AI and technology. He outlines his plans for a paid subscription newsletter focusing on everything from product discovery and conversational commerce trends to disruptive changes in online advertising. With features like intimate dinner events designed to foster candid dialogue among industry leaders, Del Rey aims to create a community that engages deeply with the evolving landscape of commerce.
Listeners also learn about The Aisle’s structure, including tiers of membership which offer a variety of benefits, from exclusive newsletters to off-the-record consultations with Del Rey himself. As the discussion unfolds, Del Rey emphasizes his experience-based approach to journalism, believing that deeper connections with his audience will allow for richer reporting and analysis.
In a light-hearted exchange, the hosts discuss the nuances of conversational commerce and the evolving nature of how consumers interact with brands. Del Rey shares insights from his discussions with industry leaders, exploring the distinctions between textual and voice interactions in commerce. The guests speculate on the future of these trends, engaging in a spirited conversation about the balance between hype and genuine innovation in the AI commerce landscape.
Before closing the episode, Del Rey enthusiastically introduces listeners to his first interview for The Aisle, featuring John Collison, co-founder of Stripe, discussing the future of payments and commerce. The episode wraps up with Jason G and Scot reflecting on Del Rey’s journey and the exciting future that lies ahead for him and The Aisle, inviting their listeners to engage with the new publication that promises to deliver valuable insights into the world of commerce.
As always, if you enjoy the show, consider subscribing and leaving a five-star review on iTunes. Join us next time for more engaging discussions about the future of commerce and technology!
Episode 333 of the Jason and Scot Show was recorded on Thursday, November 19th.
Join your hosts Jason “Retailgeek” Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of ReFiBuy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.
Transcript
Jason G:
[0:23] Welcome to the Json and Scott show this is episode 333 and that is a lot of threes,
Jason G:
[0:30] being recorded on Thursday November 19th I’m your host Jason retail geek Goldberg and as usual I’m here with your co-host Scott Wingo.
Scot:
[0:39] Hey Jason and welcome back Json and Scott show listeners, Jason today we have on the show a guest that I think between us we have known for a cumulative 30 years, which is way more than half his life he has been a reporter at pretty much every business publication that covers e-commerce including Inc magazine ad age all things the recode and most recently Fortune. Also wrote the most awesomest and amazeballs Amazon book winner sells all Amazon Walmart and the battle for our wallets, and now he is here on the show to tell us about a new media Empire he is launching that we’re excited to learn more about. But, what he’s most well known for is his previous 2 appearances on the Json and Scott show back on episode 67 and 183 who can forget, ladies and gentlemen welcome back for keeping with the theme of this show the third time Jason Del Rey.
Jason D:
[1:41] Well that is quite the intro and very happy to be adding to the 333 sequence that we have going on today.
Scot:
[1:53] I don’t know in what culture that’s a magic number but we’ll we’ll go.
Jason G:
[1:57] It would be even more cool if Scott would change his name we could be 3 Js.
Scot:
[2:04] Not today it’s going to be confusing enough as it is.
Jason G:
[2:07] Yeahhe would be weird though and spell Jason with like a y or something like anyone that spells Scott with 1 t.
Scot:
[2:14] Output 2 ends because I’m tired of saying 1 team my whole.
Jason G:
[2:17] Yeahso I feel like we already have to unpack the introduction a little bit.
Jason G:
[2:23] Number 1 1 problem with doing a podcast for more than 10 years is we’ve apparently used up all the guests so now we’re just, we’re just we’re just going back and I’m super excited to speak to Jason I’m I’m obviously happy to talk to any Json but particularly this Json but I’m also a little sad because I feel like we just lost 1 of our most loyal listeners right in the intro, I got a very angry text message during Scott’s intro from Brad Stone.
Scot:
[2:56] There’s room in the world for 2 Amazon books that are awesome.
Jason G:
[2:59] Yes there there are in fact 2 Awesome books of Amazon that’s my only point is I just wanted to to find the OG Amazon book.
Jason D:
[3:08] And he’s got 2 of his own I don’t know why I’m talking to him up we’re here to talk about me but no Brad’s Brad’s Brad’s great and I recommend both of his book.
Jason G:
[3:18] They are all required reading if you’re in this spaceI like it so Jason thrilled to have you back first question are you just gonna keep trying media Outlets until you finally get 1 right is that the.
Jason D:
[3:30] Woo pretty good.
Scot:
[3:32] Zinger.
Jason D:
[3:33] Like it like it.
Jason G:
[3:34] I’ve learned we share the same Mentor in Keras Wisher.
Jason D:
[3:37] I will say, car car is a big inspiration been been texting her a lot during this last few months as I’ve been thinking about building my own thing and the answer is my hope, is that what I’m building right nowwill will carry me through the rest of my career we’ll see.
Jason G:
[3:59] It is not podcast audio friendly but I’m not getting on wood for youit’sit’s a tree product.
Jason D:
[4:07] Okayall right that’ll do.
Scot:
[4:09] Gotta Have gotta start uh with the big hairy audacious goal so you get your B hack.
Jason G:
[4:16] Yeah so I feel like we’re we’re way too deep inside of baseball maybe for our listeners that are a little newer we could start Jason can you refresh listeners about how you got interested in Commerce and and why Scott and I know you today.
Jason D:
[4:31] Yeah sure can try to make it brief so you mentioned somewhere in my in my resume adage or advertising age and, I was there covering actually digital media companies this was back when companies like BuzzFeed and vice and Vox were just starting out and I was sort of covering that, I don’t know if you want to call Revolution but that sort of that point in timeand I was loving it, media personalities are a lot of fun to to write about some of my favorite stuff was about this is back in like Tim Armstrong running AOL days and Marissa Meyer running Yahoo so a lot of good a lot of good content there and, anyway I I met I was following along a publication called All Things digital or all things D yes that’s what the name of it was sounds funny today, and that’s Kara Swisher Walt Mossberg Peter Kafka and they had an opening and the 1 opening they had was covering this company called Amazon back in 2013 I had interest in it but sort of, took the job because I wanted to work with and for them that what they were doing was cool.
Jason G:
[5:46] Fair to say media Legends.
Jason D:
[5:49] I think so media Legends and soonce they expressed interest it was kind of no-brainer for me and so, happy coincidence that I walked into covering Amazon and that was now 12 years ago, I spend about 9 years there Rico took many forms, was owned by a couple different companies but yeah and and there I built a event series called code Commerce so I was interviewing a lot of retail CEOs Tech and Marketplace CEOs, and hosted a podcast myself though not nearly as cool as this 1 that was called the land of the Giants it was about Amazon it was a narrative podcast. And really became an e-commerce nerd along the way which is why when my journalist friends asked me today like why are you still covering the space I I say, you know I’d become a nerd I’ve I’ve I sort of caught the bug and and here we are.
Jason G:
[6:46] Yeah and a couple of fun notes there the the code Commerce events were awesome and I’m sort of sad that they they don’t exist you’ll correct me if I’m wrong but was the first 1 kind of a show within a show was that first 1 at shop talk.
Jason D:
[7:00] So the first 1 was at the first shop talk and yeah it was a 1 Night event. I think we had about 200 people separate ticket and it was we were we were sort of testing the model and I believe that night the interviews were, Julie wayneright who is running the real realTony hsiehum.
Jason G:
[7:25] Rest in peace.
Jason D:
[7:26] Preston piece of Zapposand I believe the third was Jason goldberger who was then the head of eCommerce at Target,
Jason D:
[7:39] and now I believe is the CEO of a company called Lamps Plus and has made a few stops between them.
Jason G:
[7:44] Third coolest Jason Goldberg in Commerce.
Jason G:
[8:02] Yeah and of course pre predating you Walt and Kara were famous for these huge gets and they would always have these interviews with these Tech luminaries and I I think of all these famous pictures of like, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, chatting together with Cara and then in the Commerce space I feel like you have sat in the room with correct me if I’m wrong I mean all those those people you just mentioned at your first code Commerce would be impressive enough but you’ve sat in the room, with Jeff Bezos Mark laurrie and Doug McMillan who just made news this week in fact.
Jason D:
[8:38] I have my my Bezos meetings were less planned I would say than the others but yes I I.
Jason G:
[8:47] And with security involved in removing you during the.
Jason D:
[8:50] Uh there was a backstage interaction with with Jeff no security this was probably about 9 years ago so he was maybe only like, that eighth richest person in the world at the time I don’t know he may have actually been number 1 already but, yeah that was a that was a quick but interesting conversation but the other is yes I’ve I’ve interviewed Mark laurrie a bunch for my book and for some of his other Ventures and then Doug McMillan, actually just posted about this on LinkedIn, after his the announcement of hishis retirement from Walmart I I spent spent about 90 minutes with him interviewing him and his CEO office for my book winner sales all.
Jason G:
[9:34] Yeah I was actually looking at that picture and I had Nostalgia that is no longer his office.
Jason D:
[9:40] No I have not been in his new office in the.
Jason G:
[9:43] You were in the old office which is much more historic because it was Mr Sam’s office. Yes uh somewhat humorously. He wasn’t allowed to change anything in it because it was it was Mr Sam’s office and so like if you ever needed a whiteboard when you’re meeting with Doug they had to wheel 1 in and then 1 day I’m like why don’t why don’t we put a whiteboard up here and he’s like. I’m not allowed to put anything on walls in here.
Jason D:
[10:14] I mean who who is who is the real Insider Jason here it sounds like it’s you Jason.
Jason G:
[10:18] Yeah well.
Scot:
[10:19] He’s got Walmart socks he’s got the whole thing.
Jason G:
[10:22] I’m like the best boy being paid to be there youso that’s a yeah slightly different different scenario uh someone’s got to take out the garbage in his in his, so and I’m thrilled to do that by the way I hope they let me keep doing it but yeah but I I will readily concede now that he’s he’s soon to not be my client that I’m a fan and and, sorry to see him go but hopefully he does something interesting and exciting in his retirement.
Jason D:
[10:48] We’ll see about politics.
Jason G:
[10:50] That is of course 1 room or 1 that he strongly and consistently denies I I have no I wouldn’t know personally but uh yeah it’ll it’s going to be he’s a young man to to to just sort of step away from everything and he certainly seemed like he was. Very capable and up for a high bandwidthlife so yeah we’ll have to see how it all goes.
Jason G:
[11:14] So Jason we had you on today because you you have some news of your own.
Jason D:
[11:20] I do so I announced this week that I was going to try to drum roll on my desk but I would not do that well, I’ve launched my own Independent Media Company it’s called the aisle and I’m going to be covering, sort of the aiic of Commerce so that’s kind of everything from product research moving from, search engines and perhaps product media properties to the AI apps, perhaps actual purchases moving to these apps, also the conversational Commerce Trend that is hitting both retailers own websites as well as as the startup ecosystem where you have, companies like Daydream wizard it’s probably dozens or maybe hundreds of others thinking that perhaps a conversational approach.
Jason D:
[12:21] Is best for this new world with llms behind them and then there’s you know there’s there’s so many other stories there’s, you know well a company like Walmart who says they’re leaning into shopping agents and agentic commerce, will that become a real differentiator and close the gap within Amazon and online Commerce will Amazon do business with these llm companies, I could keep going on and on what’s what’s the future of online advertising in a world where perhaps, more transactions become automated and then maybe this is all a bubble and at least for as a journalist, that would be a great story too and so I’m starting with a paid newsletter I think think my work is worth paying for we’re going to see if the world agrees early signs are yes 24 hours in. And I’d like to bring Live Events back into my remit I I’ll be hosting some for Fortune Magazine still like I do now, I’ve really enjoyed hosting some intimate dinners where I feel like the real tall happens and people can brainstorm and learn and also be really candid about what they’re facing and both the opportunities and the challenges.
Scot:
[13:38] Very cool so is this what form is the aisle going to take is it going to be long form written you can do a pod you can do some videos what what all you got in your bag of tricks.
Jason D:
[13:49] Yeah so I I started so I I launched this week with like I said newsletter you you can sign up for free but the vast majority of content that I write is going to be given in in in full to only paid subscribers, so that’s where I’m starting, that said I I do have some experience in audio I it’s it’s it’s a tough space as you guys know it’s in many ways a saturated space but I think there’s. I think there’s you know a a lot of opportunity there and so I’m trying to get my feet under me with the with writing with text, with my newsletter before I think about audio and video I guess I am thinking about it and having having conversations nothing to announce yet but I think that’s where I’d go next but in between, you I think you’ll see some live Gatherings that can mean dinners that can mean collabs with other event companies, where I would be partaking in what I what I think some of us like to call live journalism which is unscripted conversations in public.
Scot:
[14:57] And I’ll put in a a plug for the audience here so the best thing you know having you be a familiar with the retail and e-commerce space is super helpful because Jason and I both Jason Goldberg and I both take a lot of media calls, and a lot of times we’re kind of like at a surface level because just explaining like a lot of the underlying Concepts take a while if someone’s new to the beat, whereas when you have a question it’s like a eighth level kind of a question so you cut you cut right to the meat of it which is which and you kind of like understand all the foundational Parts which is, it’s helpful for us to talk to the press a lot but it makes your writing go deeper so for people in the industry it it it definitely, you know hits harder and deeper because you kind of understand a lot of the underlying pieces and motivations and whatnot.
Jason D:
[15:42] Listen that’s what that’s what I hope comes through and the great part about this and I mean this honestly is. When I get something wrong or maybe don’t go deep enough, I’m going to get direct feedback from people who are paying to read my reporting and Analysis that hey Jason you got this wrong and I mean that’s just, that that’s a big reason why I’m doing this to have sort of a deeper relationship and hopefully build an actual community of people who you know are are are really fascinated with the space. Make their careers off the space and want to get better at what they do and and have some fun along the way.
Scot:
[16:26] Yeah and so looking at the site you’ve got kind of the core offering which is your your basic subscription there’s a free which I imagine is just kind of a little couple samplings here and there and then you’ve got the core, which has 2 flavors you got the 15 a month or the year for 150 which is some form of discount I can’t do the math Goldberg as fast as calculator.
Jason D:
[16:44] It’s it’s about there it’s about 30 bucks off so about yeah 20% off.
Scot:
[16:49] Yeah okay there you go all right and then, so that includes a story every week or interview and then some breaking news and then access to the archive and then invites to future events so that probably is worth it right there if you’re going to, having been to many of your events you you put on a great event and then you got the annual and then you’ve got Insider which is 550 year which adds I’ll let you tell this part but and then you have team so tell us about Insider and team what are those what goodies are inside of those packages.
Jason D:
[17:17] Yeah so The Insider adds on top of what you described in the core. In annual off-the-record call with me I’ve gotten, you know over the years a lot of different teams inside retailers and consumer Brands sometimes it’s the comms team sometimes it’sa sea level executive, would like my to run something by me for my opinion and. I think there should be some value in that and so early signs from the membership uptake I’m seeing for that, tier been good the other things if you don’t want to call with me, that’s fine there’s more in that bucket another thing is you’ll get 24-hour advanced notice of events so sort of Priority Access to events that I host or collaborate with others on, and then maybe the most important thing you’ll get a handwritten thank you note from either me or my 9-year-old daughter who insists on helping me as I get this business off the ground.
Scot:
[18:20] Oh that’s very nice.
Jason G:
[18:21] And that’s Del Rey’s humble brag that his 9-year-old daughter has better penmanship than my 10 year old son just to be clear.
Jason D:
[18:28] I mean she has better penmanship than my 12-year-old son too so, they they don’t need to write anymore so I mean kind of kind of don’t blame them but and and then I I could quickly explain the 950 tier which that’s 950 a year that is a team tear, I I’ve been also pleasantly surprised at the initial update and and popularity of that tier and that is everything in the 550 tier Plus, total seats or subscriptions in 1 soI should know the math on that 1 but it’s a deal.
Jason G:
[19:06] And even better deal.
Scot:
[19:09] The 30% has a 30% on top of a 30% it’s basically free you’d be crazy not to do itit’s girl that’s girl math.
Jason D:
[19:14] I mean as in in the in the wise words of I can’t believe I’m going to say thisJeff Bezos I want it I want it to be irresponsible not to subscribe to the.
Scot:
[19:26] You’d be fiscally irresponsible not to subscribelet let’s talk about the name when you’re a Founder it’s always hard to pick a name and I I couldn’t help but notice obviously aisle has connotations of stores but, I had noticed the first 2 letters of aisle are AIwas that a factor or an happy.
Jason D:
[19:44] You know what I think it was it was a nice to have and. Still think there are some fun things that I could potentially do with the fact that aisle has an A and an i at the beginning of it, that said that has not come through in my initial branding and and may not I I like that I think it’s pretty memorable I think it has the you know it has the right connotation, pretty easy to say, I would also like the website is read the ile.com I like the play on read the roomand and my first choice was was you’re not supposed to admit this as an entrepreneur right that you had a you had a first choice that.
Scot:
[20:24] I would call that a pivot if you make a pivot it’s cool.
Jason D:
[20:27] I was told that my.
Jason G:
[20:28] There’s there’s zero chance that refi by was Scott’s first choice.
Scot:
[20:32] The way we say it and start playing is my first pivot’s already behind me.
Jason D:
[20:38] Well I’m going to get used I’m going to get used to many pivotsso, yeah my first choice I was told by the fine folks at beehive which is the email partner and newsletter platform I’m working with that I would be starting with 1 hand tied behind my back if I pick. My initial choice.
Scot:
[21:00] Are going to reveal exclusively to our listeners what it was or are you going to keep it dead and buried forever.
Jason D:
[21:05] Yeah it was it was it was the receipt as in as in proofas in all.
Jason G:
[21:13] Show me the receipts.
Jason D:
[21:15] Something like that anyway I didn’t go there so it’s the aisle.
Scot:
[21:18] I don’t understand why they they hated it so much what what was their rationale.
Jason D:
[21:23] I mean that it would almost certainly every newsletter would go into promotions Tab and or perhaps spam umand so here we are moving forward 1 pivot 1 pivot behind me.
Jason G:
[21:36] As funny as I feel like I have I have the opposite filters like like whenever I do a search I have to add the word like confirmation or receipt to the to the search so that I can find the actual transactional emails instead of all the spam.
Jason D:
[21:51] I should have talked to you first I guess Jason.
Jason G:
[21:53] Yeah but I I may be more focused on filing expense reports than I am.
Jason G:
[22:02] I am a value at twice the priceif my boss is listening in Paris. Bonjouryeah and so the the question on our listeners are most dying to know Jason is are you blocking the bots on the aisle.
Jason D:
[22:19] Oh that’s a good question.
Jason G:
[22:21] Did he just think of that.
Jason D:
[22:24] I mean they canwhatever what what whatever bee bee beehive will make that decision for me.
Jason G:
[22:32] Yeah but otherwise.
Scot:
[22:33] Pull in your free tier stuff but not your page is my guess because it’s behind a longer.
Jason D:
[22:38] That is that is how I believe it works.
Scot:
[22:41] That’s my expert refi my opinion on your searchability on your product catalogwhich is your articles. Well can you give us give us a sneak preview who who you got lined up for this puppy other than Jason I.
Jason D:
[22:56] Sure so. I’m really excited about my first interview whichwill probably have published by the time folks are listening to us and it is John Collison the co-founder and president of stripe, and openai’s partner on I should know what the formal name but essentially, pay their payments part well I knew that I was going to say the protocol name but. Agentic Commerce protocol um their payments partner on on instant checkout and just franklyyou know, I think 1 of 1 of the smartest people in sort of the payment online payments world but also future looking into where Commerce is headed and so we had a nice wide ranging 45-minute conversation. I asked him what he would do right now if he were Andy Jassie don’t think he loved that question but he did did did give me some answers. We talked about yeah the future of.
Jason G:
[24:03] Did they involve sunsetting Amazon pay and adopting.
Jason D:
[24:07] Oh that would have been great my my qu I should have left my question a little broader to Encompass that. We talked about which holiday season will be the holiday of agent in Commercehintsorry Scott it’s not 2025, and we talked about a bunch more so that that’s that’s sort of he he was a good sport to you know come on board to startups launch and I have some other fun stuff in there including, including a former Amazon executivesuse of AI to plan,
Jason D:
[24:44] a really really really cool vacation that never ever would have happened without chat GPT so that’s a little bonus.
Scot:
[24:54] All right little tease as we call In The Biz. Did you get to go and see this The Cheeky pipe pint bar I’m sure it has a name but he built a podcast set that’s basically an Irish pub and it’s in like the middle of some office somewhereand it’s very.
Jason D:
[25:10] It is yeah he’s he’s done a good job in those with those interviews I I didn’t I I did not unfortunately maybe when maybe when I sell a few more team editions of, the aisle I’ll I’ll fly out there and take a lookie.
Scot:
[25:27] Yeahcool did what so you could probably go to a bazillion places and do stuff what made you finally kind of pulled the trigger and start your own thing.
Jason D:
[25:39] Sure sothis could go in a couple different directions but I’ll I’ll give a personal backstory too I mean I, you know my dad was a small business owner he was an accountant and a lot of his clients were small business my brother’s an entrepreneur my sister has been a small business owner and so it’s kind of in the family honestly did not know if it was ever for me, that said working at Rico and sort of pitching and then building the code Commerce event series being part of the founding team of recode uh when we launched sort of gave me some of that, entrepreneurial Drivewhen I left my last job I actually thought about, sort of going the substack route at the time and launching my newsletter but I have my book coming out andfrankly I didn’t know, what my exact product would be what my coverage area would be could it be narrow enough.
Jason D:
[26:33] And and instead I ended up taking what what was a great job at fortune and I I’d say they’ll you know the last thing and I’ll get to actually the the the business reason but the last sort of personal reason is you know I’ve had, frankly a lot of people close to me you know, not live very long lives or lives that and so you know my mom and dad both you know passed respectively 50s and 60s I had a good friend passed away suddenly this past summer and is in his mid-40s and, and not to get too deep but I you know we don’t know how long we have and so that combined with feeling like this is really the beginning of major shift in, how the world buys and sells and yes part part of it may be hype but I I think there’s enough here that. I do believe this we’re going to be seeing over the next few years kind of like the biggest shift in in the last couple decades and in the Commerce world just felt like.
Jason D:
[27:35] Just felt like the right time and then and then lastly I’ll give up I’ll give a shout to my my my editor and chief at Fortune Allison Chantel she had a bunch of us pitch her our dream dream job this past spring I think or maybe it was summer, and I pitched her essentially this idea to do it at at Fortune. Fortune green lit the idea and then I realized that well I probably want to own this idea and so if I wanted to own it I’d have to make the leap and and risk it on my own and so here we are.
Scot:
[28:12] The so let’s talk a little bit of you you you know you this isn’t just your first for you into the AI stuff you’ve been writing about it some for fortunately whatnot so what, you’re obviously pretty excited or you wouldn’t have started a company and congrats on that by the way you so I’m I’m on company 5 and I think you’ll find it the most, hard and oddly satisfying thing you’ve ever done to and that you know I think you’ll be very successful so it would be fun to watch you on that side of things, the on the on the AI side what do you think about you know number 1 the big topic right now is this has caused we’re recording this the night Nvidia you know does their earnings stocks up 6% after hours so I think they said something good. But they started doing what are viewed as these roundtrip deals where you know they’ve invested in open Ai and open AI committed to buy a bunch of stuff, that got everyone thinking oh my God it’s a bubble because there’s all this vendor financing which is exactly what happened in the internet and and you you were there during most of that the what do you think about are we in a bubble what’s your what’s your take on it.
Jason D:
[29:16] WofII meanthe money being spent is. Silly I like the the number of digits you know just don’t in some of these deal announcements don’t really make sense to methat said I. I’m just I mean there there are people who I guess should be concerned aboutthe infrastructure spending and the like and yes we can debate environmental impact, I just think the consumer shiftis is real and not going away. Sort of no matter what happens famous last words, but I you know I I just think I mean I you see the you see the data on consumer behavior and you know just taking product research for example even if it’s whatever whatever the small percentages are as I think Jason has. Posted about and talked about and Scott I know you believe like.
Jason G:
[30:24] Scot thinks it’s 100%.
Jason D:
[30:34] That that he comes out with every day that’s that’s my 1 that’s my 1 Mission know but but Siri I was actually saying the opposite like this is the, my belief is this is you know the smallest any of these numbers I’m not talking about the infrastructure spending but. Is the smallest any of these consumer Behavior percentages and numbers will ever be in my opinion and this feels much different to me than, I don’t know what’s the name of a trend you know I talked with John Collison we we went back and talked about the buy button era of of the social media buy buttons and and differences we see now like this feels different much different than that, and and then lastly like beyond the dataand maybe this is a great reason to start a business it’s that by the only reason but like the personal life stuff like yes kind of an early adopter, my wife and family certainly aren’t and like just the uptake in usage andof the AI apps is, has been just astounding to me and and you know in this private dinners I’ve helped hopes for Fortune the conversations around you know early Behavior shifts that folks are seeing and and trying to react to, I don’t I don’t know if I answered your question but sort of that’s that’s how I’m thinking all this right now.
Jason G:
[31:48] Yeah so let me ask you this are what I’m kind of hearing isnot a bubble and I’m I’m with you I don’t like the infrastructure and investment piece like, kind of too complicated a question to for medium and get my brain around but like the.
Jason G:
[32:05] Agentic as a Commerce behavior that disrupts Commerce I’m kind of hearing you you believe that is going to happen that you kind of implied that you’re not confident it’s all gonna play out before this holiday period, so to me that puts you kind of in the middle you don’t think this whole thing is a crazy who is a nation but you also you know don’t think it’s the main reason that people are missing their Q3 and Q4 earnings calls.
Jason D:
[32:31] I I yeah I mean you you should be are are you AI because you just summarized me really well but um.
Jason G:
[32:39] About say I would I would have said that’s a great question the answer to whether it’s a bubble or not is yeah sorry.
Jason D:
[32:47] And then I’d push back and you change your answeryeah no I think that I think that’s right and I think, listen I don’t think I would I I would not be launching a publication if I if I didn’t believe mostly you know, that we are we are headed for man am I going to say paradigm shift I don’t know you know I I I think Scott and I are probably in on on the same side and sounds like you Jason that. All this feels much different than anything we’ve seen in the last couple of decades and and yeah again if it if it all goes to hell like, I guess that’s a great story for some journalists but I don’t know that I could build a business on that so I you know I’m not counting on that.
Jason G:
[33:34] Yeah I feel like that’s the 1 that’s 1 of the ways in which you’ve picked a good career is Comedians and journalists like when whether it turns out good or badcuz like it it’s either a huge win or you have a funny story and it’s a it’s an interesting read, either waybut I do you know Scott and I talk a lot like we we had this friend who I assume you also know Andrew whip-pin who 1 of the. Early Advocates of retail media and he famously wrote this article a couple weeks ago is this all a shared hallucination um.
Scot:
[34:07] No he didn’t he didn’t ask he said it is.
Jason G:
[34:08] Yes yes uh okay well yeah.
Scot:
[34:10] AI is a hallucination period.
Jason G:
[34:13] Yeah he was definitely taking the overhyped perspective and then a dear friend of mine and I someone I know both you know tsukareta muru kodai, wrote wrote an article today saying hey. The like it’s only like 2% of of prompts have anything to do with Commerce and it’s all overhypedand so I’m, I don’t know it’s it’s it’s interesting I now have to hear that every time I walk into a room is like is this a real thing I just did a webinar at work on a Janet Commerce yesterday and that was that was the first question I got at the end of this was, is is this a hype and I’m I’m kind of with you. Like I I don’t know how fast it’s going to happen I think the timing is hard and definitely you know there’s people that are overly whipped into a frenzy 1 of which may or may not be on this podcast at the moment, but the it’s it’s hard to believe, in the long run that this isn’t a a fundamental change in how people discover stuff and buy stuff.
Jason G:
[35:20] Scot why are we wrong on the timing.
Scot:
[35:23] Well I have rebuttals for sutura and Andrew but I won’t I won’t burn up our our valuable Delight time on that.
Jason D:
[35:30] I will I will just I will just I I I know I’m I’m kind of disagreeing with with what’s s sutareta laid out although, think she has some valid points that said like talk to her over the years for a couple of stories come to mind about like, trends that like she called gimmicks and. Kind of or companies and 1 of them um I’m pretty sure I quoted her on this early feature of the the wishshopping app. WIS which.
Scot:
[36:07] Is that so.
Jason D:
[36:10] They they had sold.
Jason G:
[36:11] Teemu 1.0.
Jason D:
[36:12] They sold for like 140 million or something like that after whatever andand she was right so anyway uh shout shout out Sutra.
Scot:
[36:23] She said social media would never be a Marketplace on Tik tok’s doing pretty good.
Jason D:
[36:29] The exception rather than the rule there though huh.
Scot:
[36:32] Yeah it took a it takes Cyclesthat’s a good.
Jason G:
[36:35] I think there’sno no go ahead Scott.
Scot:
[36:38] It’s a good segue into conversational Commerce I know you you interviewed Mark laurrie for your book and he was big on that.
Jason D:
[36:48] He was pre Walmart I think it was pre Walmart when he was still running jet.com, maybe it was at Walmart when they launched it they launched something called jet black which was essentially like text message-based concierge service but the vision was that it was not going to be humans on the other side of, the text it would be.
Jason D:
[37:11] Bots of some type and you know I think at Walmart internally think they got a lot of push back for the money they were spending and, I think I think it launched in New York City with like pretty it was geared toward like well off women, I think especially mothers busy mothers and you know they they burned a lot of money but I think the MPS scores were like, amazing but it’s 1 former employee told me I think they said you know it was a greatit’s a great service but not a business anyway, he had this Vision that like conversational Commerce you know not text not uh keyword-based search was would eventually become a hit he actually believed so much about it that, I think Walmart was thinking of shutting down jet black and he went out and raised I think I I don’t know if this was never public until my book I think I think he raised like dollars from companies like, Visa Microsoft maybe a few others to spin out jetblack into and and Walmart would would own 50% of it and as I reported in the book I think at the very last minute Doug McMillan, put.
Jason D:
[38:27] Put a stop to that and I think blindsided a few folks I I asked him about this for my book and I think he said they wanted to keep the technology which I’m still not exactly sure what it was but keep the technology and that and the idea inside of Walmart, even though they would haveowned about 50% of this, this JV anyway didn’t happen but but you know I’ve been thinking about that a lot as sort of conversational Commerce starts to take off again maybe that was actually, ahead of its time and I know some people associate with it definitely felt.
Jason G:
[39:01] Interesting and what about you personally Jason are you bullish on conversational Commerce do you think that’s the future interface.
Jason D:
[39:09] Well are are you talking voice or are you talking text or both.
Jason G:
[39:12] Haha so that’s my first trick question of that is I feel like conversational Commerce is a complicated word, so yeah that’s the first thing to unpack are we talking about like long-term sentences being a more important part of Commerce or are we talking about actual speech being, being part of Commerce I, kind of got the impression that like most people when they say conversational Commerce I think are talking about speech but I actually think the jet black service when it was talking about conversational commerce was more talking about text interpretation.
Jason D:
[39:49] It was it was yeah and and so I listen I. I think both will have their roles depending on the type of, the type of search or the type of product but I’m not I’m not going to make any predictions on, how much penetration we might see I just do I I do believe, you know we we talked about conversational voice search when Alexa first came out or early days of, Google Google Assistant you know Walmart actually had to deal with them and like all of that fell flat on its face for the most part, I I I do think we’ll see higher penetration numbers there now how big they get I don’t know what do you guys think.
Scot:
[40:36] Uh side step it and say I think the hidden the Hidden Gem is this chat gbt group chat that could be like really interesting. So so in China for the longest time they have the Chinese the Chinese flavor of conversational where you it has Commerce in the, in the whole thing where you’re you can just chat with a brand and stuff that never really took but but here with AI I think that we have another shot at it and I think, a lot of people aren’t tracking this group thing because they’re launching it in small countries to start because I think they’re out of server capacity but it’s going to be interesting to see I think that could be how it unlocked. So the 3 of us could have a you know a sports team we’re excited about or something and we could be like hey anyone know I actually need new shoes or cleats or something and, and it it could just like hop into the conversation and you could just like say hey at chat gbt can you know you recommend anything. That you guys can chime in on whatever it says it’s pretty neat if you, I can’t use it because I don’t live in you know the 3 countries like New Zealand Japan and I forget the third 1 Singapore I think so I don’t live in those countries so I can’t try it but it looks like it could be pretty.
Jason D:
[41:47] Well if you have any requests for someone to try it out for you my brother lives in New Zealand andactually he’s coming to stay with us this weekend umI don’t know what he’s.
Scot:
[42:00] I’ll send you I’ll send you.
Jason D:
[42:03] Sounds like I should be having him use it for me too.
Jason G:
[42:09] Yeah although it’d be really wants to be a good brother.
Scot:
[42:11] Dang I just gave you an idea.
Jason G:
[42:12] I feel like you’d be better off getting him to move to Singaporelike it’s kind of an outlier that New Zealand’s the test market for something but there’s a a lot of interesting digital experiences that that uh start out in Singapore.
Scot:
[42:25] Yeah I don’t know why they chose the countries it is very strangely.
Jason D:
[42:28] Sheep sheep love AI.
Jason G:
[42:32] Could be trying to recruit Greg fan to be there next CEO is my.
Jason D:
[42:37] Well I got some good stories there too but another time.
Jason G:
[42:39] Yeah I I’m kind of in between you I I thinkI’m with you I think, text interpretation is, going to become increasingly important I mean I think we’re already seeing it with like the very early versions of of as Scott likes to say a a gentic Commerce optimization today.
Jason G:
[43:01] Theyou know in Google you tend to to use, 3 or 4 4 word searches and you know Google taught all the whole world to think in terms of keywords um but now you know the the typical prompt might be 20 to 30 words and that additional context, opens the door for for wildly better experiences and outcomes and so I I do think that is super interesting and I think like my son’s never going to learn keywords like all the all the kids are, are you know very organically having these long form conversations with the llms and it seems Seems, Perfectly Natural to them and they get way better outcomes than than adults do in in aggregate, I’m less optimistic that the voice is super important there are absolutely use cases where where voice, works and is useful I I use voice in my house to to order an Uber and and that’s perfectly fine and I could imagine for some, some replenishment use cases that voices fine but like nobody’s, gonna order their next like replacement air conditioner or dishwasher or or or like you know some some super specific garment with a bunch of unique attributes like people people aren’t going to.
Jason G:
[44:17] Do that with voice voice just isn’t that efficientalthough you know I think the text thing is super interesting and, you know some listeners may not know Tik tok’s parent company in China is daune or bite dance but the the Chinese version is daun, which is much more like a a chat Commerce platform than the sort of, short form video social discovery platform we all think of as Tik Tok and, it’s it’s very different but the amount of Commerce that happens on it dwarfed Tik Tok shop has been enormously successful and Tik Tok shop is still a rounding error compared to all the Commerce that happens on Dow, so I do think there’s a argument for this like long form text and these these free form texts becoming an interface for Commerce, Dian in China.
Jason D:
[45:09] I I want to I want to disagree but I agree with that you know the interesting thing on the voice is that, you know part of the reason that and and I’ll be talking to the head of Alexa Plus at at Fortune’s AI event in December salt maybe I’ll ask him part of the reason they. They launched Alexa plus sort of at the same time as a bunch of these new Echo Show like devices with screens was that, I think they thought the combination of voice with the screen is what would need to be necessary, to start taking sort of actions some of that can be transactions not you know actions don’t have to be transactions but some are and so. Anyway just be interesting to see if that bet if that bet works out it’s it is still very early, agree with you on the text based stuff making more sense a lot of the time at least that would be my guess.
Jason G:
[46:10] Yeahso did you say you already have a a conversation booked with the Alexa.
Jason G:
[46:21] Sorry with the the with someone from Amazon about.
Jason D:
[46:24] Yo sorry um yeah so so, we’ll see I I I don’t know if it will be in in the aisle because but but I am co-hosting still events with Fortune as I said, and we have our brainstorm AI Event in San Francisco December 8th and 9th and I’m interviewing there on stage Panos Panay who, runs not only the all of the consumer gadgets at Amazon but also Alexa also, project hyper and I think also Zoosk the, autonomousvehicle unit that Amazon acquired some years back also rolls up to to Panos who’s longtime Microsoft executive who joined I want to say 2 years ago uh.
Scot:
[47:15] Big portfolio.
Jason D:
[47:16] Sounds I’m I’m not sure how that makes sense but maybe I’ll ask.
Jason G:
[47:22] That feels like the miscellaneous bucket and the revenue.
Scot:
[47:26] Other you run other.
Jason D:
[47:27] Is that a good place to that a good place to be under Andy Jassie that’s maybemaybe I’ll ask him that privately.
Jason G:
[47:36] Yeah although potentially like Amazon ads was was a miscellaneous Revenue bucket for a for a considerable period of time so it can. Well Jason the most consistent thing that has happened in the history of this podcast is we start every episode being this is going to be a short episode, um and we’ll we’ll give the listeners a gift and and finish in half our usual time and then the next thing we know we’ve used up the entire hour which, I would say surprisingly not surprisingly has has happened again.
Jason D:
[48:13] Glad to do my part.
Jason G:
[48:15] Yeah I think there’s a I I don’t think Mark Twain said it but I think paraphrasing if I had more time I’d make a shorter podcast. Um but so 2 recap how can listeners find And subscribe to the aisle if they are so inspired.
Jason D:
[48:33] Yeah they can go right to read the isle.com and back slash join where they can purchase a subscription, if I have not convinced them that they should which, can’t possibly be the case but you could also write on the homepage subscribe to as a free member again you’ll get, little breadcrumbs and Snippets here and there of my work but I think to to get sort of anything, worthy of your time I just ask that pay me a little bit for for the work and so again that’s read the isle.com, join and I’ll be on LinkedIn like all the cool kids I like sharing some backstory there and you know for all the sort of fun that some people make of of LinkedIn you know,
Jason D:
[49:26] I learned a lot there and have some fun along the way so you can reach me there too.
Jason G:
[49:31] Amen and I will put links to your profile and the uh read the aisle.com join page, in the show notes if you’re not driving feel free to click it otherwise wait till you get home and do it do it safely but Jason it’s been great to reach out we’re gonna look forward to following your success in the new venture, and learn some surprising breaking new news in our Commerce space that we love so.
Scot:
[49:56] Yeah congrats on starting a new gig and excited to see where you take it from here you’ll be in 10 years you’ll have immediate Empire it’ll be fun to watch you build.
Jason D:
[50:05] I was hoping I’d be retired but that’s only Doug McMillan I guess.
Jason G:
[50:09] Those 2 are not mutually exclusive to be.
Jason G:
[50:13] You could have a media Empire and be retired.
Jason D:
[50:16] I’m knocking on wood.
Jason G:
[50:18] Uh well well for listeners you do not need to subscribe to this podcast but you can jump on iTunes and give us a 5-star review if you found this episode, helpful and again we’re super grateful to everyone for tuning in and to Jason for giving us some of his valuable time, and until next time Happy Commercing!
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