A weekly podcast with the latest e-commerce news and events. Episode 179 is a discussion with Edge by Ascential VP of Global Executive Education Chris Perry.
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Chris Perry is the Vice President of Global Executive Education for Edge by Ascential.
Topics covered:
- Digitally Native Brands
- Brands Going Direct
- Crazy things CGP executives say
- Amazon
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Episode 179 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Monday, June 17, 2019
Join your hosts Jason “Retailgeek” Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Founder and Executive Chairman of Channel Advisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.
Transcript
Jason:
[0:24] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show this is episode 179 being recorded on Monday June 17th
2019 I’m your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I’m here with your co-host Scot Wingo.
Scot:
[0:39] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason Scott show listeners listeners in this episode we have a real special treat for you,
they’re all special treats but this is a special special treat I’ll explain to the short story
for a while I ran had the dubious honor of running a full day Amazon seminar at internet retailer their seminar at their conferences called IRC
and a few years ago that we’re always looking for folks to get this and fortunately at televisor we have this ability to see what our customers are doing so we had this customer Caldwell pet
and this is very competitive pet category and they were just absolutely destroying the competition on Amazon so we dug into what was going on there and found that
architects of that strategy and success was called Chris. So we scheduled at all called to talk to him and talk about so we can get internet retailer and we’re blown away by his ideas and thoughts about,
consumer and add know how to succeed on Amazon etcetera.
[1:41] He he gave a talk there and that was a Smash Hit and then I like to think maybe this had a little something to do it but then he was pretty rapidly there after recruited by Kellogg’s those are
does that is not the business school but the cereal lego my eggo folks and did a great send there and now he is with Edge by ascential,
his role includes evangelizing.
Chris:
[2:10] Thank you so much it’s an honor to be here.
Jason:
[2:13] Hey Chris we’re thrilled to have you and you know as usual I like to to correct Scott’s introduction I do feel like there are a bunch of people that work at Kellogg the Gathering NBA from the Kellogg School.
Chris:
[2:23] I’m sure there’s a Kellogg squared group that has doubled up there I was not one of them but I was excited to be at the one.
[2:33] Pretty much took up about 50% of my pantry so.
Jason:
[2:36] The more delicious one.
Chris:
[2:39] You gain if you do gain the Freshman 15 when you start working.
Jason:
[2:43] Yeah yeah we’ll have to explain that because I hear the culture may have shifted a little bit that the free snacks might not be flowing as much as they want it but.
Chris:
[2:52] I think there’s nothing they were trying to help us with their waistline but they still had the Kellogg’s Cafe that had like an endless cereal and it was just an easy for me it was always easy cuz I don’t normally eat a ton of breakfast when I got the office it was such a,
such a such a treat but I could see if you were there all day long in the in the main headquarters that could get a little unruly on your eye.
On your way to climb so.
Jason:
[3:18] I I get it and Scott and I are big proponents of selecting your your career choices based on their snacks so.
Chris:
[3:25] Exactly.
Jason:
[3:27] We’re totally sympatico and that’s usually how we like to start the show is to actually get a little bit of a background about the Guess Who Could you tell us what you did before Scott quote on quote discovered you.
Chris:
[3:40] And that was that was the.
Climax in my career right there so since then I’ve fallen quite far down to edge by so I’m just getting up.
But bite my Journeys been kind of an interesting one after,
my MBA program was I had the awesome opportunity to join Reckitt benckiser or RB is there now called I’m going to have them for a while,
RB is a very unique culture honestly one
it’s it’s it’s very it’s a very tough environment but I kind of treat like the Marines in there not cut throat against each other their Cutthroat against competition externally
and so I mean that has no oil pressure and a pace but not everybody can have,
but it but for those who can it really teaches you the ropes and they’re very lean,
you get a lot of autonomy and you get to take ownership of things that you would necessarily get to and some of the the larger more bureaucratic,
cpg organizations that so I really lucked out.
With that experience and ultimately was I first started out in Brandon really thought you were coming out of my NBA.
[4:52] Brand management is my specialization year than I thought that’s what I was going to do it there were very clear tracks and this is right is obviously digital was becoming a Hot Topic not that it wasn’t already present for the Hot Topic,
it marketing and soda,
net-net I’ve been asking how do I take a rotation and digital or something again that’s kind of going where the puck is going for the consumer and there weren’t any things at the time and,
and in ultimately this special project kind of came up and I was
laugh when I think that it was called the special project like it would end one day and it was called E-Town which was obviously what e-commerce was and in so we were the whole company was essentially a ask for volunteers,
at a town hall and when we ultimately when I looked around and she would raise their hand there like three of them that it actually volunteered as tribute in true Hunger Games fashion,
I’m for the special project and so it was,
and I can tell you to this day I can I can name the people I won’t do it on the show but I can name the people who pulled me aside and said that I had ruined my career and I would never get back in the brain,
I would never become a senior leader because of this specialization I’ve gone to Niche this wasn’t going to ever turn out.
[6:08] And it’s so funny because most of those people have either already shifted e-commerce or asked me at some point later having forgotten what they said to me.
[6:19] Ask me how they could break into e-commerce until I say that humbly because I was so we don’t know where the future is going to go we just have to go with us and talk to you later,
I never look back and then honestly wreck it was such a wonderful environment for testing and learning because they literally would point at
the future and say go get it here is some resources and you got to go fail and learn and then optimizing and succeed and so
kind of call that original group of about 20 of us that openly that’s three built into,
the racket Mafia cuz that was the original group that got to really learn and hone their e-commerce skills and literally we’ve cascaded and then thrown to the,
before Winden I’ll leave ye Commerce across so many different cpgs and solution provider so it’s it’s it’s so it’s so cool to see all the tabs,
really that just led me ultimately to a new opportunity wellpet we’re obviously Scott you discovered me and then and then,
actually I took a very short stint before Kellogg’s at Planet retail RNG which is one of the companies that became Edge and I kind of pause that’s after when Kellogg’s do you want one of those too-good-to-be-true opportunities and then to Kellogg’s and then,
ultimately I was asked to come back which I was an honor to come back to what became Edge by ascential.
[7:42] Which is the combination of clavis Insight one click retail brandview and plant retail RNG into one company on last August and and the rest is history and so I might just have been very blessed in my career I mean everything happens for a reason,
I’m not going to tell you it was all sunshine and rainbows but it was it it’s been an amazing learning opportunity and I and I really do feel personally and professionally the e-commerce was an accelerator for me,
but really got gave me the opportunity to do what I feel called to do,
as a career and I don’t want to sound corny but I really do feel like leading change was something I was,
I am a mini of us including you were meant to do and I think we’re doing it all of our own unique ways.
Jason:
[8:28] Awesome and I think you mentioned me off the air that all those e-commerce naysayers are now the leadership team at chewy is that.
Chris:
[8:37] Chewy was a very is and was while I was working with him a very formidable.
Retailer partner but also competitor in the marketplace I mean when you think about it that they got ahead of Amazon in one of the leading categories before Amazon and I only say,
I’m sure Jeff Bezos has a drone outside my house watching its moment as I say this but we got ahead of of Amazon before the eye of the smile of Mordor as I like to call it.
Saw them in and they are leaving in Texas which is and have a really really unique value proposition I me when I drive down our,
Street here in Boston of the street I see the chewy box in a lot of people’s doorsteps and then they’re going to recycling and so he’s really made their Mark and my hats are off them and they were tough Partners II,
they were the human version of Amazon is I I kind of would refer to it as well pet but liquid comes with a lot of emotion but but versus automation but it was a.
My hats off to them for getting to where they are today.
Jason:
[9:41] Yeah yeah even more impressive I feel like they the captured more market share not because the smile of Saruman wasn’t looking at that category early I feel like,
Amazon through Quincy was in pet super early and yet she was still able to come in then.
And that do that so definitely impressive you you reference Edge ascential and it’s essentially a rollup of a number of,
data Insight tools for e-commerce if I have that right can you tell us a little bit about what your your current role there is.
Chris:
[10:16] Yeah I know and it’s oh yes we we we rolled up for companies to essentially try to create what most practitioners myself included,
I would say we were suffering from in the marketplaces that they’re there was never a lack of different solution providers but you kind of had to.
Hackensack everyone together on the internal side and there weren’t a lot of players who had all the capabilities brought together Sunday we’re not we’re not.
The full full service provider on every service in and in offering available but we have a lot of the winning brands that brought the solutions together and also have not only just the day that an Insight side of the advisory dedication side and that’s where,
that’s where my role really kind of flourishes I have.
[11:03] As a practitioner I had the opportunity to practice e-commerce and help others in e-commerce from a from a Consulting standpoint but also,
I’ve made it a point I’m to go to a ton of different events over my career to date both for learning but also for networking and a little bit of retail therapy,
I’m as we are facing challenges in the space and that kind of gave me a a certain.
Perspective on what CD better about the education available in the market and so one of my major responsibilities is needing our executive education programs which include,
are share groups in Oregon, share groups in North America and Europe are University programs are online learning and as well as our what would I,
I think my favorite is Ari hackathons e-commerce stomachs and focus on Amazon and or Walmart or digital shelf or other retailers globally so,
honestly I think if I had to equate my job does a nerdy analogy I’d say,
I’m at this point I’ve left the war front but like Captain America I’m going to sell war bonds back at home so that I can arm our soldiers on on the front line,
with with weapons that will help them win the win the fight in an e-commerce driven world.
[12:25] It is definitely a nice fit cuz my mom my wife or teacher is my father’s is a CEO of a company and very inspiring leader and I think that was always called upon of Empower people to become better at what.
Scot:
[12:37] Very cool and you got a D credit for working in a Captain America Sacha Avengers reference so.
Chris:
[12:42] I’m trying I’m trying I have a little check.
Scot:
[12:46] Jason Scott Bingo we have to make the hardest square is making fun of Jason so I will get there.
Let’s start a conversation the top there you’ve done a lot of really good thinking and execution and,
the trend of Brands going direct to Consumer ecology to see and then sometimes inside of their digital native vertical Brandt’s we have like the old school folks like the Kellogg’s Etc
I really trying to figure it out and then you have somebody smokes or kind of born and bred on the internet at a super high level 30 thousand foot,
where do you think we are in that that cycle and you use whatever analogy you want to baseball or Avengers.
Chris:
[13:31] Movies yes.
[13:34] Don’t know yet you know what’s funny I mean.
DDC will be brought here cuz to be honest your point it digitally need a vertical brands or just digitally native Brands kind of sick.
Underneath one layer under need to see an arguably what even goes back a little further d2c is kind of sits under Challenger Brant right because technically.
Adidas the brand challenge the assumptions of how one has to go to market and that has become kind of commonplace now among DC brand that’s not the part that you’re challenging anymore but,
it was to go to market in a way that it wasn’t their traditional brick-and-mortar selling into,
selling into a planogram model and in so you know I’d any Challenger is a nice umbrella term for this but but obviously.
From a digital lens I think in all fairness in an e-commerce years DTC is is is rather.
It is rather old I mean it’s it’s not new anymore it is maturing,
I’m into a new stage or new stages I would say those kind of dough pulling back a little bit looking at things relatively like it if it’s still in a rather early adoption saying so you know,
yeah that the Dollar Shave Club Unilever acquisition I like I kind of look at it as,
Saddleback innovator I’m the iPhone yeah I’m going to be the first one to an iPhone and I sleep outside the store even though we’re still in the early phase we’re not everybody has d2c or is fully.
[15:04] You’re mining the value of what do to see could be at a macro level but I do think you don’t number of Articles out recently that I thought we were,
you’re quite insightful around me or just the fact that you are the barriers to entry are still low for e-commerce players know to go to market digitally but the cost of customer acquisition,
the share of attention in in the means to get that with all the other people trying to capture their share of voice,
investment funding availability and also the prerequisites and requirements to get those,
on this funds from investors is becoming more competitive and either when you think about DTC Brands going through.
Like a Marketplace platform like Amazon to get to Market Amazon isn’t just letting any old Cellar in the old Bender launch without a number of.
Formalities in and policies and processes that I help pay for my room and board and books,
am I selling books in in my college days on Amazon and on eBay’s half.com with I could be a seller at that.
[16:15] I would have been doing it all over the years ahead I’m not stopped on my own just cuz I would have been one of those piddly sellers out of my garage and maybe a formal style.
Samsung filters that are being applied that make it a little harder for a g2c brand to go to go to market but I do think there’s actually several factors that are kind of.
[16:35] Shifty that letter keeping d2c an option in something that will continue to expand so you know.
Just like I got to listen to mount the state just to stay linear in my thinking but I think the nature of digital in the reality of kind of finding a minimum viable audience doesn’t actually have to be that big to get you off the ground,
maybe this is tree funding but no just to get something going enables a lot of new brands start.
Based on the need state or a consumer problem or a desire I’m the marketplace model in and of itself has a lot of power in ultimately enabling,
Champion Brands and retailers to in sellers to go to market I mean especially look globally,
the C2C Marketplace is huge in Marketplace China,
we’re getting an individual has the ability to be selling directly to another individual are they easily like to eBay eBay seems with Wayne the little bit.
In in the US but it’s huge in other markets that that model so I think traditional retailers are seeking new undifferentiated an exclusive offerings. Asleep driving demand again look at a Target,
really bringing using digitally native brand influencer Drive what they carry in store so so going D2 seed has a lot of potential benefits even though the definition might Morris little bit consumers are always going to be looking for.
[18:01] New experiences and experience exclusive use of Brands going kind of.
Leveraging pop ups in Flagship stores in partnering to create experiences and solve new problems are going to capture attention actually think we can talk to this little bit if you have some thoughts cuz I love to hear it.
What’s interesting is.
I will see and ebb and flow happening here so e-commerce was the way to go to market when you couldn’t get into brick-and-mortar but as e-commerce continues to grow and real estate.
Independent landlords are ultimately looking to fill space and create.
You’re the need for that physical real estate to be maximized it may ultimately kind of pendulum swing the other way where Brands actually can use,
physical retail to drive DC sense of capturing attention and breaking through as it’ll be kind of interesting to see the physical Marketplace.
[19:01] Resurge as experience has become more important but against everyone’s looking for gross everyone’s looking for differentiation everyone’s looking for a reason to capture demand and I think it’s always going to open up.
Add or 4D to see whether it’s digital or physical or both.
The energy to enter the scene but I think there’s still early in the stage because ultimately you don’t need a lot to get going.
As long as you’re willing to be in it for a long time.
Jason:
[19:32] So like,
clearly for one of the things that has emerged as the barriers to entry for these Challenger brands are our lower costs or lowers you you sort of highlighted there but it does feel like we’ve evolved like it like.
45 years ago you can be a challenger brand and you could slap up an e-commerce site and
that was going to be a competitive Advantage versus Dean Cummins but didn’t know anything about e-commerce or slap some listings up on on Amazon or Alibaba and you could do customer acquisition on,
on Facebook and you know again that incumbents we’re not likely to be digitally Savvy it feels like.
The incumbents have.
Now develop digital skills like you you know I yours your stint at Kellogg feels like an example of an incumbent it was hiring digital specialist,
to build up those skills what are the show in the sort of evolved Market if you’re a new Challenger bringing launching today what weather the the sort of big challenges you have to overcome to be successful.
Chris:
[20:39] That’s it that’s a great question Hut in enter point I think that IQ and the appetite is increasing across-the-board whether you’re the incumbent or the,
the past Challenger or the new Challenger I think the the challenges you know Jen are.
Yes the cost of Entry is low but the,
but it still to truly get scale quickly which everyone wants those success stories you’re this quick no overnight success stories those are harder to come by again lotto tickets aren’t bought every night,
that that that win but I think I would say from a.
[21:18] When I think of the challenges that some of these brands have I think it’s he gets more of the investment dollars which began as more and more of these Brands emerge and have.
Similar or equal propositions it’s it’s obviously how do you stand out how do you how do you capture the attention of the investors you get money that you need to kind of build sale to go through really need to make sure you have a plan.
Yogurts with an oral icycle that ultimately get you the returns me know it as a start-up you’re going to probably lose money up front but how do you do have a logical.
[21:51] Reasonable path to sustainability in and what is that and what is that taken in again I think I think even investors to be honest are wising up and it’s not just oh my gosh this looks like it’s going to be the next.
Biggest thing since sliced bread on it it’s like we’re now they know some criteria that we got checking against I think the challenges are getting the scale of resources investment.
Where are these Challengers often still have a significant.
Advantage over the incumbents is agility and I say this in the sense that and in generally also a there closer to the founder story,
we’re in a night maybe it’s not Sounder but its Founders or it’s the people who found the pain point and try to solve it it’s there’s all these things that haven’t been solved by the incumbent,
and sometimes these are like 10 points against the consumer didn’t even know like against the way Steve Jobs but it said your customers don’t know what they want to show it,
they don’t always know that that team Point really mattered until they were given an option.
[22:53] But it’s the way they order or the way you’re the way it is fulfilled in the product itself with experience that follows you know,
and I think these these Challenger Brands often have designed.
They’re offering and how they’re going to get it to you for the consumer so Julie was customer consumer first but then they have the ability to get irate that on a much quicker timeline because that is their business model where is.
Combat if I’m selling one of Kellogg’s brands are well pets.
Online it was designed for Amazon or for g2c I’ve got to go through a lot more hoops and months of.
Change management in transition if I can sell it in ultimately just to watch a small what looks to be a very small change my product titles or something I can change digitally fit actually.
Inherently change the product that takes me.
Anywhere from 6 to 12 months minimum versus a challenge and it might be able to flip a change around in weeks near depending on the change.
I think you’re definitely or challenges for the Challenger no pun intended but I think there’s I think they actually still have the benefit even if it.
It’s harder to get the money to stale quickly cuz they actually have the solution which is the substance over over slick presentation so to speak.
Scot:
[24:18] So look what I say you’re a brand that’s been around for a while and you’re just dipping your toe the number one thing I always hear is channel conflict with butcher you having kind of I’m sure you’ve overcome this one several times what’s your what’s your take on that.
Chris:
[24:33] Social conflict should be part of that initial discussion and I actually.
If I take one step back so what was really interesting to me and again I’m by no means I’m not.
D-ind Aldi Aldi to see expert I’m just a nerd you asked a lot of questions and usually L talks people which which sometimes is good when you’re negotiating with Amazon.
What would I say to a lot of people.
Read about Soto again I joke sometimes and I say this with humility but I joke a lot of people will say I read something about d2c we should launch it right away how do we do that we can just slap it on her brand what’s right and no no no.
Yes we could go we shouldn’t and yes there’s some Logistics and Technical.
Geotechnical factors and some legality need to think about and retailer record those are all the operational.
Models and processes you need to file what you launch D and operate DC and those do matter once you decide certain questions that end in but you had the right answer these first why are we doing.
[25:40] That could be a number of reasons I’m doing this for market research I’m doing this to be closer to my consumer I’m doing this for data I’m doing this for capability development I’m doing this because I can’t get this product to Market any other way,
Adidas C model or the Digital model makes more sense testing and learning and there’s a number of good reasons to do D to C,
baby multiple reasons why it’s doing it because you read an article about it or because your boss told you so outside of just that you should do that for the sake of your job,
is it the right reason right there it’s the why no start with Why by Simon sinek is his very first.
Very important First Step II is what can we and will be launched as a value proposition that is both differentiated.
[26:26] Superior to the status quo.
An ultimately viable for our business and Bible means a lot of things right and relevant strategic actually solve the consumer problem is sustainable scalable.
We have to answer that first because anyone can sell their product online which then becomes a potential Channel conflicts your point so what was happening a lot of times is the question immediately went to.
Should we sell online yes okay.
Won’t that be a channel conflict will yes because they haven’t come up with the value proposition that actually is differentiated from how we sell currently online with the other retailers right there and that’s where the pricing a product online.
[27:11] At the same or competitive or lower prices I’m competing with my with my partners and likely undercutting them likely starting a price erosion War.
Again but if I thought through what can I be selling this different right when I think of like you know you’re picking on Brands but they do a good job in a luxury I think there’s a really great job they obviously sell K-Cups in the Keurig machines.
Across all of retail brick and mortar and online but they have a community online a very large substantial meaningful need to see operation that caters to the special loyalists audience and they got to sleep.
Walgreens mini packs any flavors that sings with them until there’s a reason to be there.
And it doesn’t immediately can split with all the other places in there not being competitive undercutting price and channel.
With with their core offering but they can do something unique in test before they watch you in Mass retail with new Innovations I think it really just goes back to.
[28:15] Do I have a value proposition again that’s different that’s better and that is by.
That sounds really simple it’s not simple but but you can bet your ideas to ensure that they don’t cause Channel.
Jason:
[28:29] Fair enough the I want to dive a little bit more into the psyche of those cpg execs and the reason I’m asking you this is because I feel like you do,
I posted some really funny memes cpg exact say the craziest things.
[28:50] You did not put those until after you left Kellogg.
Chris:
[28:53] I like I didn’t intend to be fair that the nice thing is.
They’re not all from Kellogg’s made they were actually kind of compiled from peer feedback across the board in again.
As a disclaimer just because I think it’s important the people I’ve worked for yo senior and executive leadership at all the companies I’ve worked for Kellogg’s wellpet.
Record obviously Edge and Planet retail prior to Edge they are all extremely smart in most cases they’re smarter than I’ll ever be.
What is interesting is that when you represent something different,
and honestly e-commerce could you to be mad libs and you can replace it with insert change here,
there will be a time where something happens in the marketplace,
for us where we go all that’ll never work and that’s actually the next e-commerce right so there’s going to be a day where we have to be humble enough to know that they’ll be a nerd named Chris Perry junior will make fun of Chris Perry senior because he said something.
Just as silly as some of these but what’s funny is that we’ve all been fighting the good fight these leaders of change this community in this movement that we are and we’ve all been facing kind of the same common.
[30:05] Nice sayings if you will come in a lot of that is just because the model A brick-and-mortar and traditional brand has an incentive,
all of these organizations to Pivot their thinking and behavior and so they’re not stupid people they’re not they they’re actually extremely wise and smart people it’s just that this.
This is the first time this changed let’s be honest most of them have been operating within the mature.
You’re the CasCal stage the brick-and-mortar retail so they’ve mastered that they are masters of that it’s just this is that small disruptor that hasn’t,
only tipped everything on its on its,
on its head but will when it’s just to get some of the ones again in everyone who’s been in the space can appreciate this yo just somebody’s I just pulled a couple II put 30 out of the 30 most common,
darndest things that cpg exact same but you know I got one related I just read
this is a cpg exact speak number 19 I just read an article about d2c and it’s impressive but we should just add that to our brand site right,
number three.
Hey Chris I think we need a strategy first and that’s just after Chris has presented the strategy to them.
Just because you don’t understand the strategy being presented to you doesn’t mean you need a strategy you know number 16 do you want to double down in e-commerce what can you get me for 50K.
[31:33] That sounds like a real double down to me you know you’ll be happy to know we added we finally out of the e-commerce team the end of the 2019 plan agenda you have about 30 minutes to present at 5:30.
Oh I’m sure after 9 hours of discussing the past will be ready to focus on the future right you know I mean honestly.
The best ones ever were and honestly some people said no way you haven’t been out since I’ve been asked multiple times in my career,
and I know others and actually said they had it as well Chris I can’t seem to connect to Wi-Fi can you help me,
no no that’s it I just thought that was fun and then the best one of all was our CEO would like to talk to top with Jeff Bezos can you set this up.
Yeah let me just text him honestly dessert painful in the moment funny.
In solidarity with our community.
And they’re not meant to make fun of anyone person cuz we will all be guilty of we probably all said some of these things to something different we didn’t.
That we didn’t understand or accept but my goal is not to make fun in and and slam these people it is to raise awareness in a comical way of things that hopefully we can.
[32:44] LeapFrog right no knowledge gaps we can LeapFrog so that we can accelerate the change and win,
In-N-Out honestly that the feedback I’ve never gotten this much feedback from anything I posted that you tell me something about the continents there before that I need to do better,
but with people really related to this really resonated with them and so if you haven’t had a chance to check it out to get it it’s just a little ebook I put together.
Different relations and I’m sure you’ll relate to all the things that have been said so.
Scot:
[33:11] Yeah yeah I really enjoyed that it wouldn’t be a Jason Scott show if we didn’t talk a little bit about Amazon and we kind of what kind of nibble around the edges and when introduced you have talked about how
when you’re at wellpet you you’re really out there,
crushing the category were some of the strategies that that use then or that you see now that you know someone’s new be at a challenger brand or a well-established brand to
having success on Amazon.
Chris:
[33:40] Now that’s great in annual is itsfunneh it in retrospect it’s not that revolutionary thinking but it but it is but it but it works so I think that’s an excellent actually kind of funny to just it just is a.
Preface to this is I found it.
[33:58] We always go back to fundamentals and in the fundamentals really matter and then we’ll talk a little bit to this but like,
at the end of the day I could do I can drive millions and millions of dollars of an age of Maisie demand-generation to acquire customers to a page that has no product in stock.
And then I don’t convert right so so at the end of the day like the core operational supply chain Marketing sales fundamentals all matter online and they matter even more than ever before because,
the real time right in once I sell my product into the shelf on a planogram I’ve got 6-12 months depending on the retailer,
just sit there and so I mean obviously it’s the in-stock still matters but I don’t have to worry about my packaging changing or the UPC chillogy necessarily,
you outside of brand teams going up to they always do when someone new comes in and wants to change everything but,
but by the way I approached it and I was considered the Jeff Bezos has a flywheel model is Unstoppable flywheel that you drew on the back of the napkin.
[35:03] Arguably we at least need our own version of a flywheel that we would put on PowerPoint.
It’s just a frame how we want to think of it and that’s really kind of this came out of Wreck-It on this was thinking that came out of bracket and out and I’ll give credit to.
San Diego trt who is now the SVP of ions,
he was our fearless leader at Wreck-It over e-commerce in a number of other digital Shopper initiatives and he kind of coined the bill Drive earn.
[35:36] Freezing fruit for our strategy and then I kind of put the flywheel visual together to kind of bring it bring it to life and so together.
[35:45] Together we form Captain Planet but with with the broader team but I think it was that idea flywheel thinking
because it’s an Infinity Wii U no sound on the left side you got build in or the foundation right you got to build the number things internally capabilities,
the content that. The portfolio and intended to get to build all of it you got to get the right resource sponsorship,
education,
on the right measurement capabilities or at least to get started and then you ultimately go from build into the right side of the of the infinity a bright as you swoop up in the drive which is all of your marketing and your demand-generation your promotion,
subscription programs like subscribe and save that you would be in again that would create momentum and then is that is that.
Infinity loops with swings back up ultimately going back towards build what you’re actually creating is a is a dual cycle that pumps itself right there.
Ideas to get the kind of Perpetual Motion right where my I’m disproportionately earning from the building in the in the driving that I’m then I’m delivery.
[36:55] And what I love about that visual is it in send you a text that you’re never actually done.
So if I create amazing content and get my products live and I’m driving to version something is going to change as I’m selling more and Rising that requires me to change my content yet right I’m never really done my contacts.
[37:15] A lot of people like to think they may check content in a complete yes for like a day,
and then you need to be thinking about how you’re going to refresh that so your bills include everything from assortment right at your supply chain in stock in your your your availability your SEO.
Search engine optimized portion of your content where you where that role is being served but also the enhanced content and images in a plus ages but really,
it’s thinking about I need to show up high in search so I actually get considered but once I’m in it,
did I actually talk to the human being looking at the page even in 3 seconds and and that’s actually not like a lot of people gain go to content and I have the key words in my in my in my page but they don’t go,
why put the key word which is the feature but I didn’t talk about the benefit that was really why they were buying.
[38:13] Right and it’s little things like that obviously really matter. Just making sure you’re selling on the white platforms right so you want to amazon.com,
really has been it is the majority of sales as they kind of try to figure out what’s fresh Prime now and Pantry are ultimately going to look like whereas,
you know I’m like a Walmart obviously ogp which is online grocery pick-up is UPS in emerging
opportunity in one do you want to make sure that you’re also winning on not just the.com.
[38:47] And that’s kind of the bill bucket the drive is again all the promotions right there power coupons Deals Deals of the day,
I am your AMS search no paid search on the display no advertising.
[39:02] I’m both on-site and off-site right in and earning is all the things you earn right to share the growth.
The sales that the additional reviews the captaincy you might gain a new opportunities that come to you first to your winnings I think it’s a way of approaching at the face of how you approach the Indian model,
it kind of feels overwhelming cuz you never get to say you’re done but it needs that you never stopped working and that’s how those calendar Brands think and so I’m not I haven’t had.
The honor of being a part of a digitally native brand but I’ve had a,
I’ve been able to be intrapreneurial and it work if it proved itself that record proved itself that wellpet and when the Kellogg’s Team all I was there was pivoting in that direction we’re actually seeing the same results as well even though we were part of a much bigger.
Scot:
[39:49] Colts let Serrano people love both high-level and we are strategic stuff and Tackle 120
nothing really good job getting people to review your products on Amazon which is that social proof there stated that shows what you get something like 7 reviews of product takes off any any
tips or tricks for folks listening on on how to kind of get reviews going.
Chris:
[40:14] Reviews are tricky only because Amazon I would say such restrictions I’m fairly so I mean we don’t want steak reviews right but I mean that’s that’s been a real hot topic.
Over the last couple last year plus but I mean it’s always been an issue but I think as they started to crack down.
On counterfeit and bake reviews obviously just making sure that their site maintain stuff you’re the number one search engine for products kind of authenticity and Trust,
I think we’re one little tip with reviews cuz I think your points you need to have a certain number of reviews in this varies between god scene,
21 up to like 40 to 50 or kind of just those gut-check like you you don’t feel like they’re enough people who can be staking you out who could have it wasn’t just Chris Perry’s family that filled out the reviews,
has a really large extended set of cousins ultimately it’s it’s.
[41:08] What you want to do a couple things that reviews one ultimately you’re doing all the right things telling you will obviously generate enough sales at the normal percent of.
Reviews that would come through for most products will ultimately come through for you,
there are some different tactics if you’re like a three-piece seller where you actually send the box in the package through I know there’s some three pieces that put in little cards or follow up with their Shoppers to encourage of you so there are some opportunities,
but just looking at it from 1 p.m. 3 p sample.
[41:39] If you have a great product people openly going to review it and but what I think is important though is to Spur that flywheel to spin faster to get more people to convert Morse of the day,
experience your product and then review it more,
it’s using the reviews to inform your content and I know that sounds really basic but people don’t do that so and I can give you it like this is kind of a funny zample but I was in the market for a pair of gym shorts,
several months ago and to be sure I haven’t used them yet so I’m the wrong person to be the spokesperson for the brand but what was interesting was,
that the reviews and the Q&A really revealed some some say some confusion points about the product that the product.
Wasn’t answering even though they asked said really decent content for all the other features of the product,
what was in and it was kind of funny that I would say I spent a long time buying shorts just sounds funny but but I didn’t have I gone to Kohl’s it would have taken me like 5 minutes to buy there and it would have been all subconscious quick things I made the decision on I would have walked out,
because I was looking reviews the way I normally do on Amazon for things that should have been low involvement it became very high involvement for no reason it was because of content didn’t tell me.
What one of the issues was how are there pockets.
[43:00] How deep are the pockets will I lose things from the pockets to some people are telling me that the pockets were big enough to hold.
Two to three your tennis balls without losing them some said they lost their keys I’m trying to understand like how many keychains did you have,
summer saying that they that they like why why are these 80s shorts falling but no above and he’s one 80s shorts but why are they why KD shorts and falling above the knee or other people are saying that they’re so bad you they come way below
obviously that’s probably an issue of pipes of the people for the reviews weren’t speaking. So it was in there were a number of other issues of whether they received through and whether you should go commando
honestly all the issues that weren’t being addressed by the conscience if that product he didn’t actually.
Had only tens of reviews had wanted to get to a hundred or whatever was.
Competitive consideration number right for for their category they could have driven more conversions we should have got more sales would be at more reviews inherently without having,
talk to me about the future that everyone was asking about and so I think that that’s.
That’s a tactical I would taste like you to be very unique to every product like till size for vitamins and Medicine.
[44:17] What’s show me how big it is don’t really don’t don’t nnn-no and I know this sounds silly but like he was real tactical don’t put a pill next to a penny that’s gross I’m not going to eat it.
It is size it is size compared to Bill I come on like I don’t I don’t I don’t want to swallow that.
Light sensor like Mucinex is part of Wreck-It job of having like a hand a beautiful clean hand hold until they give you a very good sense of how big,
that like I was a best-in-class of how tactic like the boy that was a question that was coming through that they probably have conscience or.
Yeah because normally at XXL if you would have been able to see the pill in actual size on the package.
And it wasn’t coming through digitally so I can go nerdy in this all day long as I love I love the content side and reviews side of things which again seems cliche now cuz everyone knows to do it.
And so I think that’s a huge opportunity to drive conversion which then ultimately get you.
To review my new reviews to drive more sales to get more reviews.
Jason:
[45:25] Yeah create your own flywheel and by the way I feel like the hand is a good tool for scale but I feel like comparing it to a skittles would actually be best.
Chris:
[45:35] What would actually did that that’s funny you said it cuz I actually that’s very astute point cuz I was in what if you had a hand holding like an Eminem or your point of Skittles I went Eminem I’m a chocolate guy and then and then you had to tell me.
Jason:
[45:47] We have a lot of westerners named Jeff from Seattle so that’s why I.
Chris:
[45:58] But it just takes away the gross Ness of a common items found on the streets of New York on so I think that’s,
no not to me but I’m just just Urban streets.
Jason:
[46:11] Yeah I know you brought up an interesting point though so there’s a lot of things that we traditionally like.
Would have made a purchase decision VR subconscious,
like often largely based just on on brand recognition that we now like because there’s so much more data available we turn into this so I can,
much more considered purchase and there’s actually a professor at Stanford that writes about this he calls it absolute value in essentially his premise is,
that when there’s not very much information where it’s hard to judge the quality of product that we use brand name as a surrogate for quality,
but when objective,
information is available about a product as it often is online now the brand name actually is much less important because.
Shoppers have easy direct access to all the real attributes of the product so when you know ratings and reviews being a,
Marquee example when you can read a bunch of ratings and reviews that they are products good or bad.
[47:15] The brand reputation isn’t as important and the reason I bring that up is because that sort of ties perfectly to one of the big evolution,
in the Amazon Echo System you know where it where it increasingly saying Amazon watching their own Brands and
serve going head-to-head with the traditional and coming Brands is that a new fear that like you get from from the clients and Executives that you’re working with is like what what sort of strategy should,
don’t have against Amazon private label.
Chris:
[47:49] That’s a great question I’m I think so private label has always been around obviously in retail and II as a,
your practitioner in the space do support private label cuz I do think it’s important as a retailer strategy,
not to put all your eggs in one basket or you know a few baskets nearby category it help to profitability I mean to give you a unique offering I need to be honest like my wife and I,
from brick-and-mortar standpoint always shop Target before we had kids and became more and more.
UE commercialized I guess but honestly I loved I’ve always loved targets
open up Brandon all their private label Brands investor with a high-quality again the brand Equity Park good bad or indifferent isn’t always tied with me.
Your private label bits but they are valuable I’m Brands and and doodoo outfit our home but I do think that the challenge is.
[48:47] I think this is the part where you obviously politically no from from the government standpoint I was a lot of issues have been raised recently not just about your Amazon or anyone retailer but I just generally DC.
Mega Omega organizations that have these ecosystems do they need to be broken up are they dirty too much power and I mean that.
Subjected to a lot of different people but I think the scary part for a bran.
If I were a brand today as I’ve been recently the challenge with an Amazon or a retailer as such.
With private label is that it’s not that private label.
Why did you stew sat next to your product on shelf it’s that it sits in front of your product,
and so I think that’s the scary part is that it’s the way the digital shelf works there are only so many top search results there are only so there’s only so much above the fold one,
and as a lot of data shown people don’t really scroll and so winning the top box your top top search results being,
above fold really does matter both from a paid & organic standpoint and so when a retailer of whoever that is.
[50:04] Is launching and expanding their private label and private brand with all the cards in hand and is putting essentially the proverbial product in front of yours I mean that would be like going to a.
A mass retailer in against sitting at the back of shelf with all the private label in front so you can really see him,
but I think that’s that’s where it’s scary because now the choice is gone but then again we’re so used to the digital shelf morphine in real time
it’s not that my grandma doesn’t matter anymore than she won’t seek it out but knowing that so many searches start unbranded as well.
That that means it’s so many searches will defect to what.
Again like a Google and Amazon is telling me is the most relevant search result in that case and I’m going to dine a likely choose at it again think about it you can’t be voted president.
If you’re not on the ballot and or you don’t get enough right in right so it’s hard to be a riding so as long as you’re on the ballot you you have a chance.
And so I think that’s the challenges when the private label private Brands kind of automatically get on the ballot and might be bumped up a little bit they have disproportionate.
Game to win versus the brands who don’t have all those.
Merchandising capabilities may not be able to see you again you don’t have all the parts you know what the cards are and so it is playing he’ll poker without.
[51:27] Without all the way without a full hand of cards and I think that’s that’s what scares me that I seen a lot of our data the day that you from Ed date I’ve seen is shown that you’re obviously,
why the proliferation of brands from Amazon specifically is quite large and number it’s not,
most of the dollars have been coming through an Amazon Basics and and.
I ate some of their core the other original brand is not all of their proliferation brand for the same as their testing and learning Real Time by category,
and just announcing that they have a product in a category usually causes some sort of Market impact which may be what their objective is so I think that’s the scary part is just not having.
[52:08] Not having a lot of control if you will but that puts on his back on the Brand’s I mean we have to do we have to create demand and then seemed to me.
Jason:
[52:17] That that makes no sense I feel like the poker metaphor is a little bit of a sore subject because there’s this this rumor that Scott runs a big e-commerce poker game and I keep trying to get a bite and it keeps pretending like he doesn’t have a game.
Chris:
[52:31] Why haven’t been invited either.
Scot:
[52:33] There’s no game
cool private label is a Hot Topic and another one that we’re seeing kind of topical in the news is the delivery were so it’s you have Amazon just recently kind of ratcheted up
Prime to one day Walmart is good people putting stuff in your refrigerator wearing body cams what do you think the delivery Warriors go as us as a cpg guy.
Chris:
[52:56] That’s a great question I to some of this is a little.
I would say I’m looking at my crystal ball and try to forecast for the future will go without having the DeLorean and being able to go there myself but I.
What’s what’s funny is I’m excited to see for a number reason I’m excited to see a lot of the grocery and mass retailers expanding their fulfillment options either through partnership or their own capabilities against switching flag,
you’re Walmart and Target and Kroger and all these different retailers Regional national park with instacart or shipt.
[53:35] Target acquisition so I’m excited that everyone’s expanding and to be honest what I would have seen in CPT book firsthand and through our clients and partners is that the clicking flecked expansion is what’s triggering,
executive leadership in a lot of these companies to visit their thinking and I only need that right so we need a bridge of behavior both for,
cpg brand to act on the change but also for consumers to kind of take one step away right so I may not there may have been a lot of various the Y as a shopper I didn’t buy online.
Especially groceries but but,
the pickup option is like one baby step of comfort right well I do I do kind of hate the hassle of going in the store wouldn’t be cool if on my way home I could pick it up right so that’s all,
what’s interesting is kind of whether they mean to or not everyone’s up in the game in the focus on ultimately figuring out how to make delivery.
[54:37] Work at scale and then we’ll have to figure out the sustainability of it and that’s why all these cool models are popping up.
Ultimately get us toward the future state of iterating making everyone Foster Gauntlet in and it’s moving the needle faster towards something that ultimately.
It is long-term what’s going to happen I mean let’s be honest there will be a desire for retail.
Engagement right to go and experience something there will be physical Outlets whether their pickup were actual stores at the store is not dead on there will be showrooms there will be stores with sinners in the different ways.
[55:14] Newer harmonize retail is it being called will will come to light but at the end of the day and I’m I’m being silly but is.
When you save me the shopping time was the commute time really the part I wanted to cherish know it wasn’t I actually really,
the bridge is like oh I’ve seen you save me the shopping time why don’t you and in an ultimately is all of these players figure out how to,
bring us in the memberships cut the cost to be competitive and obviously get a Competitive Edge versus their players all the while trying to make this sustainable,
the bear is going to keep lowering it and obviously ultimately I think deliveries where the wind is going to happen so.
[55:58] It is exciting to see this more than anything was in fridge and I’ll and I’ll pause after this just to get your thoughts,
Walmart patented 2 years ago this concept of an in Home Consignment base pantry.
Which I actually think this in fridge delivery gets his very very close to which is kind of interested so I can have like a Peapod deliver it to my door or to my counter.
While I’m home Oregon or shipped I could have Walmart in these test markets but ultimately rolled out come when I’m not home and put it away from me.
I could also then have a Walmart or whoever the next player who throws the gauntlet.
Manage my inventory for me so there’s the last mile solved and infrastructures I just have someone driving.
Check on all the homes are not sin or complications of patients here but why wouldn’t I just have the person,
service that comes and checks and manages obviously with a i driven based on what I’m consuming and what I’m not and managing my my my fridge in my pantry for me and in replenishing it real time.
Relatively Rich I’m on a weekly or every other daily basis right and two months that trust has been built up this to become.
This is how I don’t have to worry about delivering anymore I’m just I’m just sending a person at scale around neighborhoods to manage people’s products you know in NC.
[57:20] I don’t know how quickly that’s going to come about but Walmart has that the patent they have.
I’m sorry testiness they have the scale and I was your day are doing this in order leading in the space big Amazon’s The Targets in the world at looking at this as well so this is what’s exciting to me is like so many new kind of models,
this delivery worst pushing us towards because the solve the cost of delivery.
What if I just have the product already sitting there and it’s not really mine until I buy it so.
[57:53] It’s kind of interesting. I think about these things just I’m sure you guys.
Take five little rationed out from that so I would love to pick your brain on another.
Jason:
[58:07] No no no it’s it’s interesting and you got bonus points for working a back to the future reference into your answer.
Chris:
[58:13] I got the DeLorean sticker on my laptop at 11.
Jason:
[58:16] It’s a little sad for me because I do lots of decks and I always put a picture of a DeLorean in there when I when I’m talking about the future and then the millennial designers in my company always replace the door and would like a hot tub.
[58:31] Apparently.
Chris:
[58:32] I would like that was at Westwood status with when you say hot tub and I didn’t think I was old until now on my mind went to when the moment’s right Cialis but that was where you at the two tubs but that either way.
Jason:
[58:45] Well I’m not going to delve into why that’s where your mind went.
Has a good point to move on.
You talk a little bit about sort of your review for you know that the retail formats that survive and it is interesting in particular I feel like an essential but it has a.
The tool sets feel like to have a.
A significant focus on marketplaces and you look globally and it’s like it seems like the marketplaces are winning everywhere it’s you know obviously Amazon 50% of e-commerce
in the US and and you know more than 50% of that is a Marketplace alibaba’s 100% Marketplace Mercado Libre is the biggest
Ecommerce Adventure in Latin America also Marketplace Walmart and Target had both sort of shifted to a Marketplace model,
is Concerta curious.
Is some flavor of a Marketplace the the eventual in point for all these things is that is that basically what we’re left with is everyone’s a Marketplace,
or it or do you think some of that the other business models can survive.
Chris:
[59:59] That’s a great question and then again I think there’s a lot there’s a lot to come so I mean again knowing exactly where.
Everything will end up is it hard to get to Peg but I think the fact that marketplaces are as large as they are both in North America but also,
it is especially from a scale perspective in many other markets that may be developing but obviously are like Trump from fire.
AR North America Market multiple times over from an e-commerce standpoint and from a growth sampling I do take marketplaces ultimately kind of play to this.
Can I use this word a little bit Loosely because we know it’s not fully democratize but it’s kind of when we think of like information it was kind of.
Democratize to a point via a Google in the sense that the most relevant wind right that the most relevant and most trafficked in most.
Value added content would win and I know that’s your that hasn’t asked her cuz I’m so companies owned these but there are other agendas you’ll good bad or indifferent better include a bit that Marketplace model does really ultimately allow.
[1:01:08] Product you know the consumer to vote up with the best product is and helps his aggregate all those choices into what we’re really searching for,
so you take Marketplace is going to have a major dominant role in the future of of retail I don’t necessarily believe that,
that all retailers as they are today are going to disappear that direct-to-consumer can’t live on their own,
but but again kind of in the same way that we looked at no fairies even prior to being bought by edgewell personal care a lot of its sales in recent times has been driven by its in-store present Target,
write Antonio again that goes to the whole kind of discussion around what is DTC really mean when a lot of these are getting sales from their own stores are from Partnerships and I think at the end of the day it’s.
Directions to Meijer brand they have a role for its direct-to-consumer citrate might be its most loyal Shoppers were part of a stand group you get to test the products to get to you.
A part of the market research process but they also sell to a digital omni-channel physical retailer.
For a different year for a different reason right there there’s a reason at the end of the day.
Channel customer strategy you know what channel the customer strategy for where you’re going to sell and why and and and how that’s going to be different or better from.
[1:02:35] From the other places that you that you offer your proposition and so you bring up an interesting point in this is something I I I just I doubt it down it is interesting it is kind of like reminds me like the dash.
You bought a dash button cuz it seems convenient that when you ran out of Tide you might want some more detergent that pointed at some point.
Would you really have 30 – buttons around your house maybe not like you’re like,
all the choices were great but would you really if you really wanted that convenient to me is when you just want one button oh wait I have one it’s my phone or it’s my voice right I can just say it out loud and it would do it for me.
[1:03:14] So it’s funny cuz we kind of ebb and flow between like The Liberation and fragmentation and then consolidation right feel like.
How many subscriptions to be to see sites could I really have before I need an app that’s like the instacart of subscriptions right I mean that’s the business opportunity right there.
I am not saying you can win with everyone but what if I had an app to manage all my subscriptions.
So they don’t have to only subscribe on one platform I can subscribe through an aggregator that and it just all of my subscriptions I think there’s going to be.
There’s going to be an ebb and flow but but Marketplace is ultimately allowed at aggregation opportunity again the democratized,
choice is lifted to the consumer based on what they really want I’m what they think they want so they’re going to still be need for Discovery Discovery experience sweater.
Global national local lerna pop up and I think those are going to still do the experiences are becoming more important products nowadays with the millennial and future generations and so,
what you did is more important than what you have so it kind of became switch from the house Haves and Have Nots that I have done and haven’t done which.
Jason:
[1:04:28] What are we just have a photo of having done whether they did.
Chris:
[1:04:30] Exactly exactly,
Edge forecast for the foreseeable future that marketplaces will be be primary driver is e-commerce globally and I think that they just ultimately provide a route to market for.
Quote-unquote proverbial d2c brand.
Jason:
[1:04:51] That makes sense and that is it like it’s funny because you eat
like that the category that’s already like a lot more mature for subscriptions is digital content right like it’s,
Your Entertainment and we’ve already seen the subscription aggregation services that apple and Amazon want have launched like a already trying to solve that problem of subscription
fragmentation so I could see that with a,
a lot more Goods in the future because that’s going to be a great place to leave it because it happened again we have wasted a perfectly good hour of our,
is the Oaks had a burning question or have some feedback about any of the topics we covered tonight though they’re welcome to hit us up on Twitter or leave us a note on our Facebook page and we’ll be happy to get back to you.
Scot:
[1:05:42] Chris we really appreciate you taking time to share your your wisdom with us one last question if folks want to find more about your your writings and thoughts online working together.
Chris:
[1:05:54] I am most active on LinkedIn and I have all my contact information publicly available so spam me or write me I would love to hear from you and again down Jason I’m just so honored to be a part of,
I’m your efforts here I’ve been a longtime fan and so tickled to be on it so.
Jason:
[1:06:12] What we are happy to have you and we’ll make sure we get the LinkedIn URL in the show note so you don’t have to write it down while while driving or exercising but until next time happy commercing.
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